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T O P I C     R E V I E W
Karl Sieber Hi all. I've been thinking about running a small tournament, possibly two this year that experiment with the rules of the sport a bit just to see what effect it has on the game. I just wanted to put the ideas out there to determine what level of interest there would be before I start putting things in motion. I'll list some of the ideas I have and it'd be great to get some feedback. This will of course be in addition to rather than replacing the always popular Broadstairs Beach tournament in August!

Experiment 1 - No halfway line, standard pitch size, 5 vs 5, players needing to play both attack and defence, unlimited subs. All other rules the same. Open to any team.

Experiment 2 - No rebound block. Any rebound obtained by doing the block would be blown as an offence in a similar fashion to the cutting rule. The idea being to encourage tactical creativity and athleticism e.g. run-on collects, hard drives to the post prior to shots going up etc. Open to teams at top local league division and above - I'm interested in seeing what the more skilled and tactically sophisticated players would do if we take this option away, no point banning a move that newer/less experienced teams might not be using yet anyway.

Experiment 3 - Change to the scoring system - 2 points for a goal within a two metre radius of the post, 2 points for a long range goal (maybe 9-10m out), 1 point for everything else. The idea of this being that spectators like it when people score big longshots or burn past their defenders for short range opportunities (or mug them off at the post for something cheeky). All other rules the same. Open to everyone.

I'm sure I'll get a bit of flak from people accusing me of wanting to make the sport like basketball, but that's not where I'm going. I think the core identity of the sport is dependent on the defending rule to encourage participation for people of all shapes and sizes and the mixed gender element. I don't feel there's any harm in taking those core features and seeing if we can do something a bit different with them.

So let me know what you think. I'm also open to different rule change ideas if people have any.

steve karl i like alot of this and its something that needs doing.

i didnt like the 2 point shooting line when it was tried at the korfball challenge a few years ago but that was because it was just to easy for the dutch boys whereas i thik it would be something that could improve english korfball as teams look to improve there long shooting which in turn would lead to teams having to defend tighter then leading to players attacking more in a 1 on 1 dual.

the block that you talk about is not used to obtain the rebound.
when it was first used it was because teams where so good at front defence noone could ever get a feed,now they just walk up to the collector and its there. the colector then walks around becuase at the top level if the feed is inplace the defence tries to take away the collect so its a simple way of getting both now.

ive seen alot of korfball this year from different contries and the block is only slow in england and im of the view that this is only because the shooting is poor so teams drop off and mess the block up.

in holland if your 1/2cm out of position it cost you a goal or a pen so defenders just get in a 1 on 1 defending postion the whole time

Sam_S I certainly like the idea of experimenting with the rules and I'd love to try some new things out at a tournament.

For your three variants listed:

1. Not for me, but some people might like it!

2. A good idea but might be hard to implement. Players quite often "run a block" to get a good position but without resorting to the slow walking move you're talking about. I'd love to try this out but you'd need to think about it carefully to avoid the inevitable rules lawyers... ;)

3. I'd like to try this one. I'm not 100% sold on changing the scoring system but thats the whole point of doing something like this... :)

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http://www.glasgowkorfball.co.uk/
http://www.scotlandkorfball.co.uk

Will Really like option 1, a great fitness option as well.

2 is interesting, as has been said already, you'll have to be tight on the rules.

3 is again, interesting, the Saint Andrews Beach tournament usually has a '2pointer from the corner' rule, but that's quite different. It does encourage big crowd-pleasing shots, but it's especially hard when the wind is up...
Marking out the '2point' areas would be the main challenge, otherwise it sounds good to me.

www.eukc.nl

koosh In principle I think the idea of introducing experimental rule variants into tournaments and one-off leagues is a good one. Softball tournaments often play with rule variants to keep the calendar varied and fun.

In my view, the important thing to think about at this stage is how to implement the rule variation in a way that's clear to players, coaches and referees, and leaves no doubt as to how the rule should be applied. The sorts of questions you should be asking are (taking your Experiment 1 as an example) "How should a 5x5 team be composed? 3 male and 2 female players? If not, how should gender-specific defending work?"

Usually, though (going back to the softball world again), rule variations are applied with fun in mind, rather than any serious ambition to contribute to the evolution of the official rules. A common (and popular) variant in the softball season is a single-sex tournament; instead of the usual mixed-gender teams, separate men's and women's tournaments are played side-by-side. I think a single-sex tournament would be a very interesting addition to the korfball calendar as well.

In principle, though, absolutely! Do it! If you're on the organising committee for a tournament I honestly see no reason why you can't play a variant on the rules. If it's popular in principle then teams will "vote with their feet" (i.e. you'll see it reflected in the number of entry forms you receive).

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http://www.highburykorfball.com

koosh
quote:

Marking out the '2point' areas would be the main challenge, otherwise it sounds good to me.


There's a type of spray-paint used by surveyors, excavators and landscape gardeners to make temporary markings. I think you can buy different versions of it, some more permanent than others.

Six cans of that, a 9m piece of string, a 2m piece of string and a local council that doesn't mind you drawing temporary lines on their park should do the trick!

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http://www.mitchamkorfball.co.uk
http://www.highburykorfball.com

Karl Sieber Thanks for the input guys. Keep it coming!

Gav - Any chance you can do me a poll so I can get a quick snapshot of which variant people are most interested in?

Gav Here you go:
http://www.korfball.com/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=5593


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gbox Hi Karl

Really good idea.

I saw that in Holland, they had a 1 v 1 competition - there is a clip online somewhere. I think that could be really competitive.

Equally, you could have some part of the day for a 2v2 competition, one boy and one girl per team. Who is the strongest pairing in British korfball?

Graham

Karl Sieber Regarding the team composition for the 5 on 5 I thought the best way to handle it was to leave it down to individual team choice but keep the rules about same-sex defending the same. E.g. Team A could have 4 guys and 1 girl on the team if they wanted, but against a more balanced Team B of 3 girls and 2 guys they might struggle to defend the ladies effectively. Although I guess it would cut both ways and be hard for Team B to defend the men too. I figure that opens up lots of tactical possibilities.

An alternative option if people don't like that idea is to force teams to field 2m and 3f or 3f and 2m, but I'm not sure how you'd justify changing the rules to make teams more male or female dominant. I don't really want to go to 4 vs 4 or 6 vs 6 because I think 4 vs 4 would be too demanding on the individual players and limit how many people could get involved, and 6 vs 6 would cram the division with too many people and make the games too chaotic.

Edited by - Karl Sieber on 06 Mar 2012 21:32:36

Marc As I write in the poll topic, removing the middle line has a major impact on the game. In case you are unaware of it, the youngest players in the The Netherlands play one zone korfball, 4 against 4. The intention of the KNKV is to pull this through on a wide scale until the U16 age group. There is huge resistance agains this, and rightly so. It totally removes the element on 'getting right of attack' and giving a certain challenge in the balance of the attack and defence, that you might as well call it the basketball you are making it. For me, people that want to play this competitively and call it 'korfball'... I have no words for it.

Think different - Korfball

katie I believe they way they do the mixed ultimate frisbee, which is 7 a side, is that after each point, one specific team (not sure if its the one who has just scored or the one who has just conceded) sets out with either 4 guys and 3 girls or vice versa, and the other team has to match that.

Not sure if that might work for the 5-a-side? I guess you'd have to specify that every team needs to have at least 3 players of each sex available.

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Korfball among the concrete cows www.mkkorfball.co.uk www.korfballinmk.co.uk

Karl Sieber
quote:

that you might as well call it the basketball you are making it. For me, people that want to play this competitively and call it 'korfball'... I have no words for it.

Think different - Korfball


I do - Korfsketball! Maybe not eh? Seriously though, the rules have been played around with since the sport began - three zone to two zone, changes to the defending rule and so on. I don't see any harm in experimenting. Who knows, it might even be really awesome and fun to play!

Karl Sieber For what its worth Mrs. Karl - a complete non-korfer who has to be emotionally blackmailed into coming to my games because she finds it so boring said that she thinks the third option would make it more interesting and spectator friendly.

Marc Karl, if you want to know how it looks, come to Holland and watch the kids do it. This has been going on for years already and there has been clear pointers about why you shouldn't do it. Perhaps first read up on the discussion in The Netherlands?

This is apart from the fact that using 5-5 is irrational with a mixed sport. Basketball has 5 players, so you're making it even more basketball, but, for obvious reasons, in Holland it's 4-4. So, make it 4-4 or 6-6, if you're even remotely serious about this. Otherwise, this 'experiment' has really nothing to do with korfball for me.

Experiment 2, is that not allowing 'tollen'?

Experiment 3 will have little influence on korfball, at least regarding the long shots, as the majority of goals, at least in The Netherlands, comes from long shots... The short shot option may be interesting to encourage rebound shots.

This really looks like made up by somebody who knows little about korfball....

Think different - Korfball

Steve Barker Tournaments nowadays are played for fun so you can try anything.

I watched the two point shot used at the Korfball challenge a couple of years back and actually liked it both as a spectator and a coach as it favors good shooting technique and it made some of the games that Taiwan played against top Dutch clubs a lot closer than they would otherwise have been because of their shooting ability.

I'd love to see us try a three circle system, 2 points for a goal scored in the penalty circle, 3 for goals scored from a much wider circle and 1 for the remainder.

I would also like to see us try a system that limits the amount of time an attacker can spend in the penalty circle .. maybe 5 seconds? This would eliminate the slow rebound
blocking without removing the possibility of using blocks or screens within the game which are not the problem

I have long believed that we need to be exploring a system of flexible returning substitution system, albeit it limited and controlled.

If we want more creative and imaginative coaches and for them to have a greater influence on the game then we need to be shaping the game to promote exactly that.

Something that works well in US basketball at local tournament level are 2 v 2 tournaments which is something we have yet to try.

I remember seeing an annual 3 v 3 softball tournament in San Diego that proved hugely popular. A team of veteran baseball players used to enter until one was too old to play so the other two entered along with a tailors dummy in full kit. Of course the dummy always struck out but much to the annoyance of many of the teams they beat they always ended up doing really well.

Tournaments are great places to encourage imagination. I remember in one Crystal Palace summer league game Scott Forbes fulfilled his lifelong dream in scoring an own goal with a classic running in shot. What was highly amusing was when the opposing team countered by trying to score their own goal and kept missing

Karl Sieber
quote:
Karl, if you want to know how it looks, come to Holland and watch the kids do it. This has been going on for years already and there has been clear pointers about why you shouldn't do it. Perhaps first read up on the discussion in The Netherlands?

I'd imagine with kids new to the sport it'd be complete carnage with 8 players chasing the ball, end to end passes that inevitably go long off the end of the pitch, people goal hanging etc. but with teams of hopefully more competent adult players capable of thinking about things a bit more tactically it may well be different. And if its not, well nevermind, it might still be fun just for one day! Either way we've learned something from it.

quote:
This is apart from the fact that using 5-5 is irrational with a mixed sport. Basketball has 5 players, so you're making it even more basketball, but, for obvious reasons, in Holland it's 4-4. So, make it 4-4 or 6-6, if you're even remotely serious about this. Otherwise, this 'experiment' has really nothing to do with korfball for me.

I wrote why I felt an extra player was needed and preferable to the 4v4 or 6v6 options. There's more to it than just being like basketball.

quote:
Experiment 3 will have little influence on korfball, at least regarding the long shots, as the majority of goals, at least in The Netherlands, comes from long shots... The short shot option may be interesting to encourage rebound shots.

I don't think too many people will be offended if I say that the standard of long shooting in the uk is lower than Holland which is why I think it'd be more interesting. Increasing the whole risk/reward thing is where the appeal lies.

quote:
This really looks like made up by somebody who knows little about korfball....

I'm no Korfball guru, but I've been playing 20 years so I'm hardly a novice either. I'm just a bit bored of how the game has developed in England and thought it might be nice as a one off to do something different.

quote:
I'd love to see us try a three circle system, 2 points for a goal scored in the penalty circle, 3 for goals scored from a much wider circle and 1 for the remainder.

I would also like to see us try a system that limits the amount of time an attacker can spend in the penalty circle .. maybe 5 seconds? This would eliminate the slow rebound
blocking without removing the possibility of using blocks or screens within the game which are not the problem


I really like these ideas Steve B. You're right about the block itself not being the problem. Could be tough to officiate with one ref though. Might need a linesman to assist with the 5 second count.

Marc Having 12-15 year olds play 4v4 resulted in 'rush pass' korfball, where basically the korf is guarded, one is near the other korf, gets the ball through a long pass and aims for a (short) shot. This is done on a smaller pitch by the way, basketball size. Not much of korfball. There are actual small leagues of age groups on and off until U14, so not just the small kids. And, it's not 8v8, but 4v4. See the previous discussion about fast4korf...

Think different - Korfball

Karl Sieber
quote:

Having 12-15 year olds play 4v4 resulted in 'rush pass' korfball, where basically the korf is guarded, one is near the other korf, gets the ball through a long pass and aims for a (short) shot. This is done on a smaller pitch by the way, basketball size. Not much of korfball. There are actual small leagues of age groups on and off until U14, so not just the small kids. And, it's not 8v8, but 4v4. See the previous discussion about fast4korf...

Think different - Korfball


I followed that topic, I just don't agree that we'll necessarily see the same results. I guess time will tell if I ever get this off the ground.

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